How the Trump administration's church-state separation compares to past presidents

+ Accessibility links Skip to main content Keyboard shortcuts for audio player Open Navigation Menu --> Newsletters NPR Shop Close Navigation Menu Home News Expand/collapse submenu for News National World Politics Business Health Science Climate Race Culture Expand/collapse submenu for Culture Books Movies Television Pop Culture Food Art & Design Performing Arts Life Kit Gaming Music Expand/collapse submenu for Music Tiny Desk New Music Friday All Songs Considered Music Features Live Sessions Podcasts & Shows Expand/collapse submenu for Podcasts & Shows Daily Morning Edition Weekend Edition Saturday Weekend Edition Sunday All Things Considered Up First Here & Now NPR Politics Podcast Featured Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me! Fresh Air Wild Card with Rachel Martin It's Been a Minute Planet Money Get NPR+ More Podcasts & Shows Search Newsletters NPR Shop Tiny Desk New Music Friday All Songs Considered Music Features Live Sessions About NPR Diversity Support Careers Press Ethics How the Trump administration's church-state separation compares to past presidents NPR's Leila Fadel speaks with Robert Jones, president and founder of the Public Religion Research Institute, about the Trump administration's relationship with the separation of church and state. National How the Trump administration's church-state separation compares to past presidents May 18, 20264:45 AM ET Heard on Morning Edition Leila Fadel How the Trump administration's church-state separation compares to past presidents Listen &middot; 4:40 4:40 Transcript Toggle more options Download Embed Embed "> <iframe src="https://www.npr.org/player/embed/nx-s1-5825013/nx-s1-9774399" width="100%" height="290" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" title="NPR embedded audio player"> Transcript NPR's Leila Fadel speaks with Robert Jones, president and founder of the Public Religion Research Institute, about the Trump administration's relationship with the separation of church and state. Sponsor Message LEILA FADEL, HOST: For more on Sunday's prayer rally on the National Mall, we are joined by Robert Jones. He's the president and founder of the nonpartisan Public Religion Research Institute, which studies religion, culture and politics. Good morning, Robert. Thanks for being on the program.

+ ROBERT JONES: Hi. Good morning. FADEL: So you were one of the thousands of people there. What was your impression, your sort of big takeaway talking to this crowd and being there? JONES: Yeah. I was, indeed. Well, you know, as a scholar of religion, I was really struck by being down - it was down on the National Mall. And, you know, to kind of take you to the scene, when you walk into the National Mall, you have the U.S. Capitol at your back. And they had set the stage up with the Washington Monument right in the background. And the stage itself, I think, communicates a lot about what this event was intended to do. It was a stage with big, fluted columns, maybe 40-, 50-feet tall. And in between those were projections of stained-glass windows, with a cross projected right in the center of the stained-glass window, and then video screens on either side that would feature the speaker. And when I walked in - it took a little while to get through the security checkpoints. When I walked in, though, it was Jonathan Roumie, who is the actor who plays Jesus on "The Chosen," on the video screens, with the stained-glass window and cross, these columns on the side that represent kind of government buildings, that look a lot like the Supreme Court columns, and then the Washington monument in the background. So I think the most striking thing about it was how intentional this merger of Christian worship, Christian church and state was right there on the mall. FADEL: So the symbolism of that, I mean, you've been researching the issue of religion and politics for years. How would you describe this administration's approach to the separation of church and state? JONES: Well, it's been, I think, a very straightforward approach to undermine, you know, that wall of separation. I talked to several people in the crowd who were there specifically to celebrate that. And you'll hear these words like rededicate. This was called Rededicate 250. Words I heard a lot were revival, reclaim, all these kind of re words. And it is this sense that we're reclaiming this country. And if you ask the question - well, who for and for what? - it really is a very narrow slice of America's rich religious landscape. It's really reclaiming it for, essentially, a white evangelical Protestant Christianity. That was clearly the vibe there. It was also a very homogeneous crowd. I would estimate the crowd was probably 95% white, very clearly evangelical, older, probably mostly in their 50s and 60s. There were some families there, but more of an older crowd. That really is the demographic of the Make America Great Again, Trump's base. And I think that's who the event was there to celebrate. FADEL: So as you point out, and as our reporter pointed out, a very narrow slice of even Christianity within this country. One rabbi was listed on the program and addressed the crowd, but no other religions represented. Did you detect active animosity toward other beliefs? JONES: You know, not exactly. But in the run up to the - not there on the event, because it was such a homogeneous crowd, I think it felt like - you know, everybody felt like kind of a family reunion there. Because this group - and it should be said, too, that white evangelical Protestants, even though they're very prominent in the Trump administration - in his Religious Liberty Commission, for example. Twelve of the 13 people on his Religious Liberty Commission are Christian and mostly evangelical there. They only - white evangelical Protestants only make up 13% of the population today. They only make up 20%, even, of Christians. So the striking absence of non-evangelical or mainline Protestants. The complete absence of anyone from a historically Black denomination or church, not to mention Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists. The animosity was upfront, though. Paula White-Cain basically said to an event organizing going into it - at an organizing event promoting it said, we will not be praying to those other gods. FADEL: Right. JONES: There won't be that kind of thing happening at this event. FADEL: Robert Jones is the president and founder of the nonpartisan Public Religion Research Institute. Thank you for your time and your insights. JONES: Yeah, thank you. (SOUNDBITE OF KHRUANGBIN'S "THE RECITAL THAT NEVER HAPPENED") Copyright &copy; 2026 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information. Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. Transcript text may be revised to correct errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record. 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