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JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
As President Trump's deadline for a deal with Iran approaches, his threats on the country have grown increasingly extreme. After a cascade of promises to obliterate the nation's bridges and power plants, he threatened this morning on Truth Social that - and I'm quoting here - "a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again if a deal is not reached." Former military officials and experts on military law have characterized Trump's words as indiscriminate and unmeasured. And they are raising alarms that his public threats, if implemented, could amount to war crimes.
Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona, a Navy combat veteran, is among those speaking out. He wrote on social media, illegal orders to make civilians suffer would be a black mark on our military and our country. Senator Kelly is with me now. Welcome.
MARK KELLY: Well, thank you, Juana. Thank you for having me on.
SUMMERS: Thanks for being here. Senator, I think many people will remember back in November that you recorded this video, along with five other Democratic lawmakers, all former members of the military and the intelligence community. And in the video, you reminded U.S. troops that they can refuse illegal orders. So when you hear the president talk about striking civilian infrastructure like bridges or power plants, does that constitute the kind of illegal order that you were warning against in that video?
KELLY: Well, you know, we know who Donald Trump is. I watched him very closely during his first term in office. And, you know, after he got, you know, reelected or elected again a second time here, you know, we saw what I think is actually, you know, a different - a little bit different Donald Trump. And we wanted to send a message to, you know, members of the military that when the law and orders are in conflict, they are to follow the law.
And, you know, what the president has, you know, said over the last few days but especially on Easter and then again this morning, you know, indicates that he's, you know, taking another, you know, unprecedented step or at least indicating he might do that. And clearly, a broad attack on civilian infrastructure, you know, would be unlawful.
SUMMERS: You point out the law and order in conflict. Though I want to ask more pointedly, should service members in this instance refuse to follow orders if President Trump does order blanket strikes on Iran's power plants?
KELLY: You know, the burden here, you know, lies the most, I think, with the president and the secretary of defense. They should not be asking troops to do things that are against the law. But the law hasn't changed, and members of the military need to follow the law.
SUMMERS: Have any troops reached out to you for guidance in the weeks since this conflict began?
KELLY: I actually spoke to somebody today. And, you know, I know that, you know, other members of Congress have had conversations with members of the military here, and not just - you know, not just this week and, you know, in, you know, prior, you know, months here about, you know, their concerns of a president who appears to want to do things that are, you know, clearly not in accordance with our ethics and values as a country. And I worry about, you know, where do we go from here...
SUMMERS: Yeah.
KELLY: ...If he decides to make this next step? I mean, saying that a whole civilization will die tonight, somebody might make the argument, well, that's just Donald Trump and he says things. He's also set a deadline. 8 p.m. Eastern time tonight, he plans to do this broad attack on civilian infrastructure in Iran. And I just don't see how that makes us more safe. In fact, I think it does the opposite.
SUMMERS: Tell us how. I mean, I'll just note here that you and I are speaking hours before President Trump's 8 p.m. deadline. How do you see this moment undermining U.S. standing in the world, U.S. security more broadly?
KELLY: Yeah, sure. I mean, our allies, I don't think, are supportive of this. We are, you know, clearly the, you know, strongest, most powerful military in the world. But where we really measure up to some of our adversaries is the fact that we have allies. And I worry about losing those allies. When the president says, you know, that NATO's not important anymore...
SUMMERS: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Or he talks about attacking Greenland or making Canada the 51st state, he is distancing us from our friends around the world. We need them. We are stronger together with allies.
SUMMERS: Let me ask you this, Senator. Senate Republicans have repeatedly blocked efforts by Democrats to rein in President Trump's power to continue using military force against Iran. What have your conversations been like with your Republican colleagues over the last few days as this rhetoric has really ramped up as these threats have gotten more dire?
KELLY: Well, I have had some, and, you know, I'm hearing a little bit different tone, you know, from them. And I think some of this is public, right? You've - I think folks have seen messages on social media from Republican senators that you normally wouldn't expect to see speak out against the president on this topic. So they are concerned as well. We'll see how many of them decide to actually, you know, grow a spine in this case and really forcefully stand up against the president.
SUMMERS: OK, so that's Republicans. Let me ask you now about your party. Have Democrats on Capitol Hill done enough? Should your party be doing more?
KELLY: You know, hey, Juana, we don't have, like, a giant magic button here, right?
SUMMERS: Sure.
KELLY: You know, we are not in the majority. After this election in November, you know, our plan is to get control of the House and the Senate, and then we have some levers of power that we can use to hold the administration accountable.
What - but here's what we can do now. We've got the defense bill. You know, we're constantly - you know, every year, we work on a defense bill. And we have, as Democrats, you know, leverage there to put things in or take things out, you know, to try to put some guardrails on what this president can do. And we are always going to be focused on that.
SUMMERS: I've seen today on social media a number of your Democratic colleagues in Congress - they've called for President Trump's removal. Senator, do you agree with them?
KELLY: Well, I mean, you know, how are you going to do that, right? I try to live in the real world here, right? I mean, are we going to see another impeachment and then the votes aren't there from Republican senators? We've been - we've seen this happen before, right? And what does that do? Does it strengthen the president politically? You know, possibly it does that. He also, you know, has a cabinet where, when he decided who was going to, you know, be in his cabinet, he valued loyalty over...
SUMMERS: Right.
KELLY: ...Just about anything else. So, you know, I try to live in the real world, use the leverage we have now. We have some, and we'll have more after November.
SUMMERS: We've got about 45 seconds left here, so I want to end with this. You served more than two decades in the Navy. Thirty-nine combat missions. This conflict in Iran, how do you see it ending?
KELLY: Well, I think the president really painted himself into a corner here. He didn't think more than one step ahead. And, you know, the commander-in-chief needs to have smart people around him. He needs to listen to those people. We need folks, you know, that serve as president that understand that they don't know everything. And I think that's why we're in the situation we're in today.
How does this end? I don't know. I think we need to get back to some kind of real negotiation with the Iranians and stop these threats of the destruction of their civilization. You know, that is not helpful rhetoric. I don't think this gets them closer to...
SUMMERS: OK.
KELLY: ...Coming to some kind of deal.
SUMMERS: Senator Mark Kelly, Democrat of Arizona, thanks so much for your time.
KELLY: Thank you.
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